Haans's Diary of all things German

[leopard]

painting finished on a pair of Sd.Kfz 231 8 Rad, this is where the EW/MW grey models are going

We have gone from



to



Simple oil staining for a water stain effect, bit of brown for a touch of rust then some browns airbrushed on and pigment mud before a final matt varnish, have lightened up nicely.

Also have finished two more Pz-IIIN and two more Pz-IVF2 for the MW list, though these are not yet weathered. Do have numbering decals though, if time permits the entire of 2. Panzer at 1,750 will be painted this way for the 2nd leg of Challenge at the end of June.

[leopard]

Well Challenge is over, thats more or less the event season done for me this year, may have a look at one in Daventry late in the year though.

Army needs a bit of restructuring, as again it ended up as crazy Adolf's used tank lot, though this time in its single game it wasn't the unmitigated disaster of last time with the dice it was the force itself.

Issue is facing off against Soviet armoured hordes, specifically the lists with a solid unit of T-34, 7-10 of them backed up by a unit of light armour or armoured cars, or more typically both. The heavies the Pz-IV-F2 can generally handle if they present themselves, issue specifically is trying to drop the decently armoured T-34, ideally at range, before they get behind us and its all over - just don't have the shots.

May even go back to the Pz-III-G company, struggles against the T-34 and larger, but can handle the light stuff with a decent rate of fire and plenty of guns, just with a platoon of F2 in there to handle the heavier stuff.

Half wondering on a Tiger list, for 1,750 can get four of them, plus a par of armoured quad flak halftracks and a par of NW41 for some smoke... would be utterly outplayed by a soviet infantry list... but apart from mine I've not seen one in a few events now, and against pretty much every allied list I've seen recently it will either do a hell of a lot better (e.g. against tankovy of various sorts) as it can ignore the light stuff totally or will do no worse (e.g. British lists that are all artillery and flak guns, where at least the NW41 may be able to kill something while the tigers sulk behind a hill).

Plus a Tiger list, Mid War, has the air of SPARTA! about it, its nuts enough it may actually work, never seen more than two of them supporting another army mid war...

Oh and its an excuse to get some of the Kursk Tigers..

[Baldie]

Bring em up and I will play you with the same mixed Tankovy force I have played you with before.
Think there are possibly three or four tanks out of the lot that could possibly hurt you if wind is blowing in right direction.
Facing 4 Tigers in a MW wouldn't be fun I am sure.

You could build lists to face it no problem but who expects anyone is crazy enough to bring four Tigers to a game.

[leopard]

Mid war Tiger!



Following how 2. Panzer has been mauled at various events they have gained a heavy company in support, of course you would have to be "special" to run tigers mid war...



Not sure what proposing to run four of the things makes me, have a 1,750 list thats the four tigers plus a HS-129, and a 1,650 list thats three of them with Pz-IIIN escorts and the HS-129.

Figure should be good for 6-1 results, or failing that 1-6 results, but at least they can effectively ignore enemy armoured cars, light tanks and most mediums..

[Baldie]

Would love to face em to see what you can actually do, even normal infantry cant pen.
Sovs get a couple of things AT11/12 but not many and I don't have the big AA guns as yet though seeing those coming I may have a rethink.


Hope to get more FOW in as I miss it.

[leopard]

Would love to face em to see what you can actually do, even normal infantry cant pen.
Sovs get a couple of things AT11/12 but not many and I don't have the big AA guns as yet though seeing those coming I may have a rethink.


Hope to get more FOW in as I miss it.

The plan is pretty much based on what I've seen allies running the last couple of mid war events, most can handle a tiger at a push, not seen one that didn't struggle against two though, the heavier ATG are expensive mid war and generally overkill, everyone seems to load up on AT7 -- AT9 with a high rate of fire if they are taking guns. Most of the tanks about will struggle also generally AT:9 is about it, there are some better T-34 guns but they are pricy and the commonly seen mixed tankovy can't have them.

As you note conventional infantry can't hurt them and most nations pioneers are only TA:3 so still reasonably safe unless swamped, not planning to assault infantry either way though.

They do have two glaring weaknesses, there are only two platoons & HQ so covering objectives and attacking is difficult and while they have a very good "straight to firepower" gun in most cases, and some excellent skills to boost them they have a very low number of actual shots, a dug in infantry horde will be a problem.

Obviously air and heavy artillery is dangerous, hopefully priority HS-129 will see off enemy aircraft and perhaps drop a few guns before a 150mm bombardment deletes them.

There is a British artillery company doing the rounds, well infantry but its the bar minimum then loaded with artillery and AT:13 heavy flak guns that would be a challenge to say the least, but just aiming to run something a bit different for once.

Besides Alex got me the models, would be terribly bad form not to actually use them.

[Baldie]

Bring em up one weekend, i reckon they would be tough to take on even with a list specifically built knowing they were coming.

WW2 at Janco's should be starting soon as my Sovs invade Germany so hope to get several games in.

[leopard]

Following Campaign 2016 it is clear the 1942 Tiger list is fun, but not overly viable, its good but basically lacks the number of shots to work. Poor tigers, a victim of equal point values, do wonder if they should be a lower cost but you start with a victory point penalty or something — i.e. you have something valuable, so are expected to do better as a result.

That aside its clear the list is not viable in a tournament environment so what to do? Especially with a 1,750 event in four weeks and not really the time to do anything that needs further models.

Haans is going back to 2. Panzer, with a Mottler Panzerkompanie that we have used with, lets be honest, mixed results, varying from poor to catastrophically bad. On the plus side we do know a lot about how not to run that army.

Ok so what are the issues?

The tigers are good but too small, the smaller panzers are typically glass hammers, still normally outnumbered and very fragile, the trick is gaining a balance of keeping the numbers of the basic panzer III and upgrading them to be able to actually do something.

Current proposal and thinking is thus:

CiC: Panzer IV G (late) — selected for decent armour with a decent gun, if associated with other tanks with the same gun the higher armour means the boss has to be hit last.. Thats the theory.
2iC: Panzer III G — no upgrades, specifically to be able to run with other non-upgraded tanks and be impossible to pick out, plus cheap.
3x Panzer IV F2 — same gun as the CiC, this is the tank hunting platoon, AT:11 they can hurt pretty much anything they will face, but have serious issues at dealing with return fire, so they are designed to be reasonably small and thus easy to hide. This has to be fair worked previously, right up until something like light armour or armoured cars get behind them.
5x Panzer III G — high rate of fire but weak anti tank, these guys are tasked with two missions, keeping light stuff from getting behind the tank hunters while they do their job and secondly being able to hurt dug in infantry and then have the numbers to actually assault….
1x Tiger 1e — here to be an irritant and a road block, plus able to handle anything the Pz IV F2 has trouble with and able to hold an objective and ignore the lighter enemy stuff.. also able to work with the lighter armour against infantry reasonably well..
2x 8-Rad — provides some recce support, specifically for lifting GtG on irritating infantry, plus more light firepower for handling infantry hordes should anyone else be mad enough to run such a list.
2x armoured 37mm flak half tracks — need something to deal with aircraft, plus more anti light infantry firepower and an irritant to armoured cars, briefly.

Comes to 1,740, could upgrade a light panzer, and may take one of the non leader ones up slightly so if he’s picked out it doesn’t matter, Could put Schutzen on the CiC but then he can be picked out, and he’s not going to assault anything so not worth it. Recovery half track is possible but not that useful, doesn’t give up a point if killed.

11 armoured hulls, plus the recce and flak half tracks, only five platoons but can work with just two, and a good range of options in that case as well depending on what the enemy has.

[leopard]

Post Challenge 2016 thinking.

Tigger is useful, but only as a distraction, just one 'confident' tank is a lot less dangerous in assault than he looks, becomes a very expensive way to maybe kill one team a turn. As a distraction though he is golden.

The Panzer IIIG is a mixed bag, AT:7 just isn't enough to function as a tank, and FP:4+ isn't really enough for digging out infantry, the saving grace is you get enough of them for an assault role, though they like all medium tanks suffer from assaulting prepared infantry.

Did however make an interesting discovery on dealing with the enemy light tank horde, give them a target they struggle with from the front, which is basically armour:6 and above and keep them moving so they get few shots that need a 5 or 6 to hit and you can actually survive up close to them. This means the Panzer IIIG cannot survive up close, nor can the Panzer IV F2, however the Panzer IV G can. Equip it with the side skirts and it can also assault infantry..

Leads to the nub of an idea, drop the medium panzer list, and move to a proper panzer list, running 8x panzer IVG as 2x3 plus 2 in command, give them all skirts. They are well armoured to be able to face off against Soviet light armour, not too risky in assault thanks to the 4+ save before the armour so they have a chance to mitigate hits stopping them going in. All that combined with a decent gun that while not amazing is AT:11 FP:3+. The downside is the cost, but they are cheaper than panthers (because they are not as good) but you do get a lot more support stuff.

The Stug IIIG is also possible, armour:7 is amazing in this era against Soviets and other allied mid war forces, again assault capable but more expensive as a result.

Two options present themselves, the first is to go nuts and run SS. Can take 8x IVG, quad gun armoured half tracks and some 8-rads in a four platoon list, but critically gain the 3+ motivation making assaults a better option. Or can stay with Heer, return to 'confident' on a 4+ making assaults risky but gain the ability to run a 5th platoon (meaning able to KG to 6 if needed).

Panthers just feel dirty.

Problem becomes facing enemy infantry due to the smaller number of hulls, but I've noticed, there are not that many Allied infantry lists out there, most of them are airborne lists so small and elite, not the scary Strelk which only I seem to be mad enough to run despite its power (it tends to win 4:3, not enough for events).


Getting something right though, have gone from the game sequence being a very predictable:

Deploy 2. Panzer
Suffer defeat 1:6
cry

to actually winning two out of three games, ok, both very close, and both in part down to mistakes by my opponent, but I do wonder on just tweaking the concept slightly and changing how I use tigger, changing the five Pz-IIIG to be four of something more useful and just trying that.

[Baldie]

Is it only LW where the Germans get some SS guy who has to try to assault in a tank but get a bonus, or did I just make it up.
Plenty of PIV would cause me issues with bigger guns but then again list I took on Saturday only has two tanks that can hurt a tiger from front and then only under 16".

Can see Colin slotting in tigers now we are doing some MW games